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Hello, Wondering if we can feasibly combine these two walks into a single day in late August? Leisurely pace, Weather permitting.
We will be based in Grindelwald, so an early start up to First. Do the “First – Bachsee – First” walk.
Lunch
Walk to Grosse Scheidegg, take the bus for our return to Grindelwald.
Would there be any other sights or stops we should consider during these hikes that would affect the time it would take to do both?
Thank You for your comments!
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Hi Are 2-
Sounds like a good plan.
Meets your standards.
There are some things to do at First that might slow you down a bit, if you participate.
That is probably where you’ll have lunch.
http://www.jungfrau.ch/en-gb/grindelwaldfirst/fi rst-mountain-restaurant/
http://www.jungfrau.ch/en-gb/grindelwaldfirst/
Here is some more information, and a topo map, which I find to be useful where there are mountains. 😉
http://www.myswissalps.com/hi king/bachsee/route
http://www.myswissalps.com/hi king/first-grossescheidegg/route
Slowpoke
Hi Are2
Your plan is fine. It should take about 2.5 hrs total. The paths from First to Bachalpsee and First to GS are wide, relatively easy, and popular (perhaps crowded)
An alternative that would take the same amount of time that you might consider is First to Bachalpsee then continue down to Waldspitz. From Waldspitz you can take the short downhill trail to Bort and cable car back to Grindelwald or there is a trail from Waldspitz back to First as well ( it will be uphill). The trail from Bachalpsee to Waldspitz is well marked but much less traveled and in my opinion one of the most scenic sections in the area. There will be no crowds on this leg. At Waldspitz there is a nice outdoor restaurant you can stop for a beer and lunch if you wish.
First to GS is nice too but more of a road and in my opinion not quite as scenic. If you decide to go that way there is a small path that veers off to the left of the main route soon after you leave First. It roughly parallels the main road and rejoins the main trail just before you reach GS. It will not be crowded and is a path rather than a road and has the same views. It is not appreciably more difficult.
Mark
HI Mark-
Good ideas. Those “usual” trails can be quite full of hikers, especially in August. Doesn’t spoil the views, but is is nicer to have fewer hikers on your path.
I note that the route you describe from Bachalpsee to Waldspitz is a 230 meter descent, and the next leg to Bort is, as you describe it, downhill….about 335 meters. The first 300 meters drop occurs in about 2/3 of a km. Steep by my standards.
If you he is old enough to have sore knees, or his knees are not in shape for downhill hiking, Are2 can also consider the bus from Waldspitz back down to Grindelwald. Runs at 1120, 1350 and 1630.
Slowpoke
Hi Slowpoke
Its true the leg from Bachalpsee to Waldspitz is downhill but it is over a relatively long distance so it is a fairly gradual descent. The leg from Waldspitz to Bort is short and would be very steep if it went strait downhill. Instead it is a series of switchbacks which makes it tolerable. You can actually see the switchback trail all the way to Bort from just across the street from the restaurant. I have had 3 knee surgeries so I too am leery of prolonged steep descents. That’s why I much prefer hiking from KS to Eigergletscher rather than the reverse which is quite steep.
Of course after looking at the trail down to Bort one could opt for the bus instead. As you pointed out that is a good alternative.
Mark
Gentelmen,
Thank You for the information!
Mark, we really appreciate the tip for hiking a lesser traveled route. We like going “off the beaten path”, as it were, as often as we can.
Slowpoke, I’m hoping that these old knees can still do the job when it comes to some “downhill” walking, but I must ask a couple of questions.
The first 300 meters drop occurs in about 2/3 of a km. Steep by my standards.
Are you suggesting that this change in elevation is “severely steep”?
Also, on the link to the Geo Map you provided, the “hiking” trails are indicated by yellow lines and “mountain” trails are indicated by red lines. Is there a defined difference between the two?
Based on what I’m looking at, it appears that “mountain” trails would have greater elevation changes, therefore “steeper”. Is that correct?
<<“You can actually see the switchback trail all the way to Bort from just across the street from the restaurant.”>>
I should have looked when I was there last September. Too busy watching sunset on the Eiger, from an angle that I don’t usually have foe seeing it.
If I zoom in on the map link I posted, I can see the switchbacks.
Each of us has to judge our own tolerance for those kinds of descents, so that is why I mentioned it.
Slowpoke
Hi Are2-
<<“Also, on the link to the Geo Map you provided, the “hiking” trails are indicated by yellow lines and “mountain” trails are indicated by red lines. Is there a defined difference between the two?
Based on what I’m looking at, it appears that “mountain” trails would have greater elevation changes, therefore “steeper”. Is that correct?”>>
I should have posted this link. Though not definitive, it helps.
http://www.alpenwild.com/stat icpage/trail-signs-in-the-swiss-alps/
The key is actually (mostly) the surface conditions of the trail. In theory, you can walk the yellow trails in ordinary footwear, while the red trails definitely require boots or shoes with sturdy soles and a hiking staff. The definitions are somewhat elastic.
( I always wear boots for ankle support on any hikes, and use a hiking staff – in German – ein Spazierstock).
And, we have to be careful to distinguish “steep” from a substantial ascent or descent. A substantial descent spread over many miles is not “steep” but still requires you to make the altitude change.
Try to visualize 335 meters. If you think in yards – about 365 yards. 3 and 2/3 American football fields…. descending in a horizontal distance of linear ( as the crow flies) 900 yards or so to Bort – overall. But, the steep part does 260 meters ( 290 yards) of descent in a linear distance of somewhat less than 600 meters. (The trail takes a longer path than the linear distance, and takes about 800 meters of walking for the major drop in the first part of the trail. So, to pick the steepest part, and looking at the actual pitch of the slope, I’d call it “very steep.” The trail itself moderates that by going more nearly along the contours….more distance , by means of switchbacks… for a longer distance than the the “crow flies” distance.
Red trails ones are often rocky and irregular and may be slippery from scree. They may have substantial altitude change, or little. They may be level or steep.
I have attached a photo of my daughter and granddaughter on the truly exceptional Männlichen to Kleine Scheidegg trail (nicknamed the Grannies’ Walk). A “yellow” trail. Look at the surface. Easy? Yes, until you reach one of the short, moderately steep ups and downs, and find your feet slipping out from under you on the gravel as you descend, unless you’re cautious.
Recalling that the Swiss consider any trail with 30 or 40 degrees of vertical to be a “level” trail ( I’m only half joking) will help you understand that a yellow trail can be very steep. And, a red trail might be level, but with a severe drop off on one side and a surface of scree. If you put a bad surface or a rough surface and a steep angle together, it will be a red trail.
Blue ones are technical climbing.
This site helps a little:
m2explore.wordpress.co m/2014/06/05/hiking-in-switzerland-map-your-options/
I have not yet fond a site with clear definitions.
[Ooops- you forced me to search. Thanks! I needed that. 😉
Here is a link with good definitions:
In that text, the word “exposure” means that if you slip off, you’re dead. Or, severely banged up and you have found a fast route to the bottom.
If I had found that link before, I could have saved my self some trouble. 😉 ]
I look at the topographic map that I linked to make my own judgements.
You’ll note Mark’s comments about switchbacks. Absolutely true, and important. It is a valid distinction….due to the switchbacks, the slope of the trail is closer to horizontal than if it were to go straight up (or down) the slope. But, the altitude change is still there, and your knees still have to flex as you go downward.
The first 300 meters drop occurs in about 2/3 of a km. Overall, on average, 1 meter of drop about 2 meters of horizontal distance along the trail. Steep by my standards.
<<“Are you suggesting that this change in elevation is “severely steep”?”>>
I do not know how to define that term, other than by what I just calculated. We have had posters on this forum who zip up and down miles of trails in a day, and others who have no experience hiking any distance at high altitude. So, for them, both the altitude chnage ( and on the trails they use) they don’t consider them “severely steep.” I definitely do. Who is correct?
You wrote:
<<” Leisurely pace, Weather “>>
With a good chance that I misinterpreted, and knowing that the trails that you named are easy ones, I took that to mean that you were not looking for strenuous exercise or difficult trails. That is why I wrote my first post.
The map gives you the numbers. You have to fit them to your own definition of “steep.”
Slowpoke
Hi Are2
It is somewhat subjective to advise someone else on a trails difficulty. For me a trail requiring technical skills is above my comfort zone. So mostly I judge a trails suitability based on a combination of distance, footing, altitude change, and steepness. Exposure has never much bothered me.
The trail from First to Bachalpsee is made for the masses and easy on all criteria.
The leg from Bachalpsee to Waldspitz I would also characterize as easy by the above criteria as well, just more of a narrow path and much less crowded.
The leg from Waldspitz to Bort I would not characterize as difficult because it is short (about 30 minutes),good footing, and the switchbacks make the descent as I said — tolerable. I would not want to do it for hours but for 30 minutes we did not find it so bad. Actually easier than the last mile or two of the Eiger trail. The switchbacks do make a difference.
I’m 65 (at least for another month) and we did these hikes a year and a half ago.I have attached photos of Bachalpsee, Waldspitz trail, and the trail to Grosse Scheidegg after the small side trail rejoins the main trail just before arriving at GS.
Mark
Hello Slowpoke and Mark,
Once again, thank you both for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Slowpoke, the links you’ve attached have been very helpful. I find myself referring to the Geo Map regularly, now that I understand the legend. Although my wife and I are both in our 60’s, we still enjoy a level of fitness that we hope will allow us to try some walks that are a bit more strenuous. And when I specified a “leisurely” pace, I simply meant not being in a particular rush to get from point A to point B. Just being able to take our time and enjoy the scenery.
Mark, Thanks for you suggestions for “alternatives” to some of the main stream hiking paths. The information from someone who’s “been there and done that” is invaluable. I’m quite certain we’ll add the walk from First to Waldspitz to Bort to our planning. I’m always hopeful when posting questions, that someone will respond with suggestions such as yours.
And by the way, the photos from both of you look great. Can’t wait to be able to post some of our own.
I have some additional questions that I’ll post in other threads to maintain relevancy.
Are2
Hi Are2- Sounds like we have done our jobs.
Go for it!
Slowpoke
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